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Is Christianity a Jewish Sect?

who's talking here?

wayward1 6
Red Heifer 7
Holling Vincoeur 1
RedMulch 2
Joe Blow 3
DatBoyHooD 1
OhBrother 1
Emperor of Kingwood 1
a889324uu 1
Butterbean 3
Prolix Raconteur 1
JimBecka 16
RayofHope 21
AMDG 8
fuzz81 2
Behold the pale horse 1
Karras 1

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RayofHope --- 4 years ago -


A little late for that revelation, Ray.


I said it two months ago. Trump (and Clinton) are both Democrats and have turned voters into zombies. 

RayofHope --- 4 years ago -


A little late for that revelation, Ray.


I said it two months ago. Trump (and Clinton) are both Democrats and have turned voters into zombies. 

RayofHope --- 4 years ago -

 

RayofHope --- 4 years ago -

Maybe not zombies......more like mindless zombies. 

DatBoyHooD --- 4 years ago -

If we're bringing up silly stuff said by politicians

Has Guam tipped over yet? 

JimBecka --- 4 years ago -

The obvious question is, why did Christianity separate from Judaism?

There are several historical reasons. The first rift happened in 70 AD (CE for Jews). When the Roman army of Titus attacked Jerusalem the Christians refused to join the three Jewish armies defending the city. The prophets had warned the destruction of the city and the Jews ignored the prophets (The Christians paid attention to the prophets). Jews were angry at the Christians unwilling to stand with them against the Romans

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RayofHope --- 4 years ago -

Actually, it was Jesus who foretold the destruction of Jerusalem. 

AMDG --- 4 years ago -

The first rift happened in 70 AD (CE for Jews).

Jim - just a heads up, the acts of the apostles - written about 90AD is kind of a biblical history of the split of Christianity from its Jewish roots.

In a very readers digest version the point it makes is at first the Jewish people were receptive to Jesus as Messiah and but soon after (about 20 - 30 AD) it became apparent that the Jews were rejecting Christianity, and Christianity became more and more gentile.

It is also good to remember that being Christian prior to Constantine (about 350 AD) was a pretty dangerous thing to be. 

JimBecka --- 4 years ago -

about 20 - 30 AD) it became apparent that the Jews were rejecting Christianity, and Christianity became more and more gentile.

Good points. I went back and read Acts, but I think you are only giving part of the story.

Judaism in the Second Temple period (when Jesus was crucified) was divided into many antagonistic factions. The main camps were the Pharisees, Sadducees, Zealots, Essenes, and Nazarenes (Christians). These groups did not get along, though they were all considered part of Judaism.

There is truth in the old saying that when you have two Jews, you get three opinions. The Palestinian Question is debated by Jews in Israel more aggressively than anywhere in the world.

Today, only two Jewish sects still exist (From Second Temple Period Judaism): Christians and Pharisees (Orthodox Jews). The others have (pretty much) passed away.

The Sadducees and temple priest hated the Christians (in particular). Some of these guys committed murders to obtain the position of Temple priest. Jesus called them out for their immorality. The Acts of the Apostles talk about how the Temple Priests tried to get back at Christians by trying to stop Christians from spreading the Good News that the Messiah had come.

Christianity was wildly popular with many Jews in the 1-4 centuries, but the Jewish leaders continued to hate the Christians.

The influence of the Second Temple Period priests was visible in the late 4th Century. The Christians continued taking part in Jewish worship until the late 4th Century, when the Birkat Haminim (prayer) was adopted for synagogue worship. The prayer forced Christians (worshipping in the synagogue) to curse themselves (during the service) for following Jesus.

According to the Babylonian Talmud, the rabbinic patriarch Rabban Gamliel II, called for the institution of this prayer as part of the central element of the worship service.

Since the late 4th Period, Jews and Christians have denied their history. I have heard Christians and Jews (both) saying Jesus was not Jewish. Messianic Jews are accepting their history and their Messiah Jesus.

Amazingly, I read a magazine story recently with a claim that there are more Messianic Jews (Jews accepting Jesus) in the world than Orthodox Jews. Christians are finding new meaning in the scriptures describing them as GRAFTED IN.

I once heard a Messianic Rabbi say that in the first Century Christians were the new kids on the block and could be kicked around by Jewish leaders. Now, the tables have turned. Establishment Judaism will have a lot more trouble keeping Christians apart from their heritage. 

wayward1 --- 4 years ago -

Establishment Judaism will have a lot more trouble keeping Christians apart from their heritage.?

They Jews embrace the Christian tourists who flock there to spend their money. They don't believe in what they're selling but they like the returns. 

AMDG --- 4 years ago -

thanks for all the info Jim 

RedMulch --- 4 years ago -

My Sunday School class is starting a study series on "Christianity - A History" on July 17. If you would like to attend, PM me. (serious inquiries only) 

Red Heifer --- 4 years ago -

Today, only two Jewish sects still exist (From Second Temple Period Judaism): Christians and Pharisees (Orthodox Jews). The others have (pretty much) passed away.


Uh, no. Just no. First of all, they're not "sects", they are different strains of the same religion. Second, "Christian Jews", even if you accept that there are such people (which is almost universally not accepted within Judaism) are the tiniest minority of "Jews" compared with Jews. Third, while Orthodox (in their various beliefs, ranging from Haredi to traditional to modern orthodox) are a large segment of Judaism, and are a dominant religious authority in Israel, are only one portion of mainstream Judaism. "Conservative", which means to conserve, not politically conservative, known as Masorti in Israel, is the great center in the Diaspora. Reform, known as Liberal outside the US, is the largest affiliation outside of Israel. And then there are all of the unaffiliated, secular Jews who certainly do not identify as Orthodox. 99% or more of Jews fall into the Jewish categories I describe, and about 25% of them are Orthodox, the remainder being Conservative, Reform or unaffiliated/secular. 

JimBecka --- 4 years ago -

First of all, they're not "sects", they are different strains of the same religion.

Great comments for discussion, but the thinking is a little outdated and historically inaccurate. I'll try and go through this clearly.

You are correct in saying all modern Judaism (and Christianity, I must add) have roots in First Century Judaism, but that was not my main point. Jewish sects were wildly popular and surrounded the Second Temple (Ask any rabbi); though doctrine from each sect still exists, most sects have passed away.

Let's look at one of them, the Sadducees. They ran the Temple, but the Temple was destroyed and the Sadducees disappeared. They no longer had a function in Jewish society.

The sect was identified by the historian Josephus with the upper social and economic echelon of Judean society. As a whole, the sect fulfilled various political, social, and religious roles. Jesus had a problem with this group and they persecuted Jesus and Christians throughout the New Testament. My rabbi once did a lesson on them and described some of the horrible things they did to take control of the Temple. Some even committed murder. THE SADDUCEES DID NOT ACCEPT JESUS OR CHRISTIANITY, because Jesus would not accept their immorality.

Some Sadducean doctrines exist in modern Jewish groups, such as Karaite Jews. I have a Karaite friend, though he has not accepted Jesus as his Messiah (yet), he is very open because he does not accept the Talmud (Yes, there are modern Jews who do not accept Jesus, but accept many of the Christian doctrines).

My main point is: Though most of the different sects have passed away, their doctrines have been accepted (to some degree) by a diverse group of Jews (You named a few of them, such as the relatively new Reform and Conservative groups). But, Christians and Orthodox Jews are the only modern groups that can be clearly tied to the Jewish sects of the Second Temple period.

You'll have a lot of trouble trying to keep Christians and Jews from their common background. And, should you really try? 

JimBecka --- 4 years ago -

I also should mention, some theologians refer to the Second Temple Period as the "Age of Sects", because of the large number of Jewish sects, including the early Christian church. 

JimBecka --- 4 years ago -

Some Sadducean doctrines exist in modern Jewish groups, such as Karaite Jews. I have a Karaite friend, though he has not accepted Jesus as his Messiah (yet), he is very open because he does not accept the Talmud (Yes, there are modern Jews who do not accept Jesus, but accept many of the Christian doctrines).

JUST A NOTE OF CLARIFICATION:

Much of modern Rabbinical Judaism is based on the Talmud (Oral Law). Believe it or not, Rabbinical Judaism teaches that Jews must follow the Rabbi and not the Talmud/Old Testament. In essence, the rabbi can make up laws.

I once heard a rabbi tell someone: "Hashem is in Heaven and the rabbi is on the earth. The people should being listening to the rabbi and not Hashem, because the rabbi is closer."

Some people feel Jesus was a Karaite Jew, because there are several instances of Jesus condemning Oral Law (Talmud) in the New Testament.

Christians often confuse the references of Jesus to Oral Law as referring to the Old Testament. That is why some Christian pastors say the Old Testament was replaced by the New Testament. 

JimBecka --- 4 years ago -

If you are interested in understanding the roots of Christianity, come to the Nethaniel Center and meet Rabbi Itzhak Shapira. He was born and raised in Israel as an Orthodox Jew and rabbi. He has accepted Jesus as the Messiah and can explain Orthodox Judaism. He will be at the Nathaniel Center Saturday, Aug. 6 at 9:30 AM. 

Red Heifer --- 4 years ago -

If you are interested in understanding the roots of Christianity, come to the Nethaniel Center and meet Rabbi Itzhak Shapira. He was born and raised in Israel as an Orthodox Jew and rabbi. He has accepted Jesus as the Messiah and can explain Orthodox Judaism. He will be at the Nathaniel Center Saturday, Aug. 6 at 9:30 AM.


If you are interested, you might read Rabbi Joseph Telushkin's book "Jewish Literacy", which is a great primer on mainstream Judaism. 

RedMulch --- 4 years ago -

I think I will attend that event. I have always been a "no questions asked" type Christian, but now I am curious about the subject. Not that I doubt at all, but the more you know, the more you can win with the truth. 

JimBecka --- 4 years ago -

now I am curious about the subject.


Last time Rabbi Shapiro spoke at the Nathaniel Center there was a question and answer session. He explains things well. It's interesting hearing a Rabbi raised in an observant Israeli Jewish home explaining Jesus. There are gaps in Christian (and Jewish) understanding of Jesus.

His book the Kosher Pig is difficult reading through. I went through it twice and still do not understand a couple of chapters.

Shapiro Web Page 

Red Heifer --- 4 years ago -

The Kosher Pig. Exactly. Just as there is no Kosher pig....

Shalom, chaver. 

JimBecka --- 4 years ago -

The Kosher Pig. Exactly. Just as there is no Kosher pig....

Yes, it's a strange title. But, you need to hear him explain the idea or read the book. Come out. He does not get nasty with Jews unwilling to accept Jesus.

I was not raised in an Orthodox home and had a little trouble understanding his ideas.

Also, I appreciate your comments. Nice to have a civil discussion over Messianic Judaism. When I first accepted the Messiah in 1972 I was living in Israel, and Rabbi Meir Kahane and some of his followers tried to set fire to our Jerusalem fellowship with us in the building. It was an amazing experience. You probably know Kahane was eventually assassinated.

I enjoy his old Youtube videos and agree with some of what he said, but not his tendency toward violence.

I teach Hebrew with a couple of reform Jews. We are very close. I don't beat them over the head with Jesus and they don't deny the fact that I am Jewish (actually, Levite.......my name means "Temple Tithe").

Gam, shalom, chaver!! 

JimBecka --- 4 years ago -

 

JimBecka --- 4 years ago -

 

RayofHope --- 4 years ago -

Rabbi Meir Kahane and some of his followers tried to set fire to our Jerusalem fellowship with us in the building.

Never thought there could be Jewish terrorists. 

Red Heifer --- 4 years ago -

oh, unfortunately there are, Ray. just as with all extremists, the great majority rejects the them. it still goes on, even within Judaism. it is not for me to apologize for them since I cant speak for them and they clearly do not speak for Jews aa a group (who does???), but I can certainly disavow them and, as I think you know, we recognize that we can disagree (which we do very well) without being too disagreeable. fortunately, they are a tiny fringe. 

AMDG --- 4 years ago -

When I first accepted the Messiah in 1972

Not exactly sure if this is a question or a comment Jim - but if you accept Jesus as God, isn't that a pretty good definition of Christian ( the Noun).

Does the "Jewish" in Messianic Judaism, represent a cultural or a religious connotation.

It is just that I don't think you can be religiously Christian and Jewish. But I think you can be a Christian of Jewish heritage.

I always felt there was a large cultural aspect of being "Jewish" in addition to the religious. 

Red Heifer --- 4 years ago -

I don't think you can be religiously Christian and Jewish.


Bingo. I mean, you can call it what you want, but Jews don't accept Jesus as the Messiah. 

wayward1 --- 4 years ago -

I always felt there was a large cultural aspect of being "Jewish" in addition to the religious.?

Just ask anyone with a Jewish mother. 

JimBecka --- 4 years ago -

Does the "Jewish" in Messianic Judaism, represent a cultural or a religious connotation.

The waters are pretty murky. Jews during the Holocaust claimed Judaism was a religion and the Nazi's felt it was a culture.

Where did the Jews come from?

Abraham was the son of a Babylonian Idol maker.

The great-grandmother of David, author of the Psalms and most respected Jew in history, was a non-Jewish prostitute.

Everyone knows the story of Ruth, the grandmother of David. She was non-Jewish.

Many of the Jews talked about in the Old Testament did not have Jewish parents.

I don't think you can be religiously Christian and Jewish.

Do you really think the Apostles were not Jews? 

AMDG --- 4 years ago -

Do you really think the Apostles were not Jews?

Couple of things. I think the Apostles always considered themselves Jewish. However, in there mind, Jesus the Messiah had come, and now they were Jews where the promise had been fulfilled.

In time, those who considered themselves religiously Jewish do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. Those who consider Jesus to be God - are no longer religiously Jewish, by todays definitions, they are Jewish. 

AMDG --- 4 years ago -

Do you really think the Apostles were not Jews?

Couple of things. I think the Apostles always considered themselves Jewish. However, in there mind, Jesus the Messiah had come, and now they were Jews where the promise had been fulfilled.

In time, those who considered themselves religiously Jewish do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. Those who consider Jesus to be God - are no longer religiously Jewish, by todays definitions, they are Jewish. 

RayofHope --- 4 years ago -

The ties between Christians and Jews are historically there. But, I don't think Christians must go back to synagogue worship.

Modern Judaism is much different than it was in the First Century, just as Christianity is much different.

Also, there are many branches of Christianity and Judaism today. Which branch is correct in the eyes of God? 

JimBecka --- 4 years ago -

I don't think Christians must go back to synagogue worship.

I agree, but Messianic synagogues are popping up all over the world. 

JimBecka --- 4 years ago -

It is just that I don't think you can be religiously Christian and Jewish.

Your comment is what the Roman Catholic Church began teaching in 380 AD (CE) when they forced Christians to leave synagogues. This caused the divide that currently exists between Christians and Jews.

But, you cannot have Christianity without the Jewish prophecies of a coming Messiah. Without them there would be no Christianity. The prophecies spoke of a suffering Messiah, and Conquering Messiah.

Jesus (in Hebrew) means Salvation
Christ (in Hebrew) means Messiah (Anointed One)
How Jewish can you Get????


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One other thing...

Just ask anyone with a Jewish mother.?

Today, Orthodox and many Conservative rabbis (and the Bible) maintain the position that only a man with a Cohen father can act as a Cohen (Temple Priest). According to Orthodox Jewish Law, I would be in line to be a Temple Priest (I have Cohen DNA from my father).

Following Jesus is definitely a Jewish thing, but the Scriptures say G-d came for everyone (......They are grafted in). 

RayofHope --- 4 years ago -

I would be in line to be a Temple Priest (I have Cohen DNA from my father).

If they rebuild the Temple, have you thought about applying for the job? 

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