WASHINGTON (AP) ? Ben Carson botched the economic effect of minimum wage increases. Jeb Bush again pitched a dubious target for economic growth. Marco Rubio, in a tale about plumbers and philosophers, undersold the value of a college education.

And Ted Cruz showed just how hard it can be to name government agencies when, just like Rick Perry four years ago in a famously misbegotten moment in a GOP debate, he messed up the list of departments he would close as president.

The fourth debate of the 2016 Republican presidential campaign was thick on economic policy ? and with that came a variety of flubs and funny numbers.

Some of the claims Tuesday night and how they compare with the facts:

CARSON: "Every time we raise the minimum wage, the number of jobless people increases."

THE FACTS: Actually, that usually doesn't happen. When the minimum wage was increased in 1996 and 1997, the unemployment rate fell afterward. In June 2007, when the first of three annual minimum wage increases was implemented, the unemployment rate was unchanged until the Great Recession began six months later.

Economic research has found that when states raise their minimum wages higher than neighboring states, they don't typically fare any worse than their neighbors.

It's not known, though, what would happen to jobs if the minimum wage were doubled to $15? as many fast-food workers who demonstrated before the debate were demanding.

RUBIO: "Welders make more money than philosophers."

Not so, on average.




.GOP Candidates Debate Economy, Immigration. Play video
GOP Candidates Debate Economy, Immigration
Rubio is arguing that the U.S. has failed to invest in vocational training ? a point also stressed by President Barack Obama's now-defunct jobs council. But Rubio is wrong to suggest that studying philosophy is a waste of money and time.

PayScale, a firm that analyzes compensation, put the median mid-career income for philosophy majors at $81,200 in 2008, with welders making $26,002 to $63,698.

And Georgetown University's Center on Education and the Workforce said in a 2014 analysis that median incomes were $68,000 for people with an advanced degree in philosophy or religious studies.

So knowing Plato and getting a college degree still pays off.

___

CRUZ, holding out his hand and unfolding one finger at a time to punctuate his point: "Five major agencies that I would eliminate: the IRS (his thumb), the Department of Commerce (index finger), the Department of Energy (middle finger), uh, the Department of Commerce (ring finger), and HUD (pinkie)."

THE FACTS: He flubbed his own list, naming the Commerce Department twice and leaving out one of the agencies he proposes to close, according to his website: the Education Department.

Perry, then Texas governor, had almost precisely the same problem at a GOP primary debate in November 2011, coming up with the names of only two of the three departments he wanted to close, Commerce and Education. "Oops," he said after failing to name the third agency, Energy, a slip that haunted him for the rest of his campaign.

But Cruz moved on without anyone calling him on the gaffe.

___

BUSH: "We could get to 4 percent growth."

THE FACTS: That's a highly improbable target because of forces in the economy that are beyond the control of any president.

Those forces have been decades in the making: an exodus from the workforce of the huge generation of baby boomers, rising automation and low-wage competition overseas. Those factors and more have limited income growth, which in turn cuts into the consumer spending that drives most economic growth.

Bush frequently holds out hope of 4 percent growth, but even conservative economists who like his fiscal and tax plans consider it a false hope. According to current forecasts, growth is expected to average roughly half that rate.

___

DONALD TRUMP: The Pacific trade agreement signed by President Obama with 11 other nations "was designed for China to come in through the back door and take advantage of everyone. ... China takes advantage (of the U.S.) through currency manipulation."

THE FACTS: The Trans-Pacific Partnership trade pact, signed last month, does not include China and is intended to give the United States more influence in Asia as a counterweight to China's rising economic power. Obama argues that China could join later, but without having any influence on the agreement's terms.

Regarding currency manipulation, Trump is recycling an outdated claim. He has argued that China keeps its currency undervalued by 15 percent to 40 percent, which would make its exports cheaper and more attractive overseas. Yet the Peterson Institute for International Economics, which had criticized China for keeping its currency artificially low, concluded in 2012 that China's currency by then was fully valued. The International Monetary Fund has reached the same conclusion.

___

CARLY FIORINA: "Obamacare isn't really helping anybody."




.. View gallery
Donald Trump speaks as Ben Carson listens during Republican …
Donald Trump speaks as Ben Carson listens during Republican presidential debate at Milwaukee Theatre ?

THE FACTS: President Barack Obama's health care law may or may not be good for the country on balance. But it's clearly helping many people.

In the two years it's been in effect, the share of Americans without health insurance has declined to 9 percent, a historic low. People with pre-existing health conditions can no longer be turned away by insurers, and everyone is required to have coverage or face fines.

While the coverage mandate in Obama's law remains highly unpopular, state-run high-risk health insurance pools like the one Fiorina proposes to replace the law have been tried before and failed to solve the problem.

___

CRUZ: Since 2008, the economy has grown on average only 1.2 percent a year, showing "the Obama economy is a disaster."

THE FACTS: That average is correct as far as it goes, but it masks the fact that Obama inherited a raging recession in his first year, when the economy shrank by 2.5 percent. In the five years since, the economy expanded an average of 2 percent, more than Cruz's figure but still a relatively weak recovery in historical terms.

__

TRUMP: "I will tell you, I don't have to give you a website because I'm self-funding my campaign. I'm putting up my own money."

THE FACTS: This assertion might have been true months ago but no longer is.

Trump's latest campaign finance report, filed Oct. 15 with the Federal Election Commission, shows that of $3.9 million his campaign raised in the latest fundraising quarter just $100,000 came from Trump, and the rest from donors. It was a big change from last spring, when he loaned his campaign nearly all of the $1.9 million it received.

___

BUSH: "We need to raise the (banks') capital requirements. ... Dodd-Frank has actually done the opposite, totally the opposite. ... Bigger banks have more and more control over the financial assets of this country."

THE FACTS: Actually, the Dodd-Frank legislation, passed in 2010 in the wake of the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, has pushed banks to raise more capital ? in other words, to obtain more of their funding from investment, rather than debt.

In fact, Dodd-Frank was criticized earlier this year by the right-leaning American Action Forum for effectively forcing banks to raise more capital.

Bush and other Republican candidates suggested that Dodd-Frank sparked bank consolidations, but the mergers actually started in 2008 under George W. Bush. During that year alone, as the market melted down, Wells Fargo took over Wachovia, JP Morgan Chase bought Washington Mutual and Bear Stearns, and Bank of America acquired both Countrywide Mortgage and Merrill Lynch.

___

CARSON: Discussing the presence of Russian troops in Syria, added that "the Chinese are there" as well.

THE FACTS: China has no publicly known deployment of military forces in Syria. In recent days, some news reports have suggested that China would send a warship to Syria, but China's foreign ministry has denied that.

China has used its status as a permanent member of the U.N. Security Council to block the U.N. from taking action on Syria, citing a commonly heard argument against violating Syrian sovereignty.

___

Associated Press writers Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar, Paul Wiseman and Ken Dilanian contributed to this report.

EDITOR'S NOTE _ A look at political claims that take shortcuts with the facts or don't tell the full story 

Actually, that usually doesn't happen. When the minimum wage was increas

I guess the cbo is wrong because they state 10.00 an hour will cost 500,000 jobs and 15 will cost 6m jobs 

Don't feed the troll, DatBoyHood. 

Fact checking the fact checker -

THE FACTS: Actually, that usually doesn't happen. When the minimum wage was increased in 1996 and 1997, the unemployment rate fell afterward. In June 2007, when the first of three annual minimum wage increases was implemented, the unemployment rate was unchanged until the Great Recession began six months later.

2 years of data 20 years ago, along with a 6 month delay are not near enough evidence that Dr. Carson is wrong. Not to mention it would be impossible isolate and identify and determine changes in employment were due to this one variable.

My Fact: no one either fact checker of Dr. Carson knows what the effect of jobs will be if you raise the minimum wage to $15. Even after you do it, it would be hard to prove any direct causation.

RUBIO: "Welders make more money than philosophers."

who cares if this is actually true in context - it was beside the point which was we need to invest more in trade education. Picking on this one is well just being picky

THE FACTS: The Trans-Pacific Partnership trade pact, signed last month, does not include China and is intended to give the United States more influence in Asia as a counterweight to China's rising economic power. Obama argues that China could join later, but without having any influence on the agreement's terms.

absolutely one for the fact checker - but come on - is catching the Donald not knowing his fact really that hard.

CARLY FIORINA: "Obamacare isn't really helping anybody."

THE FACTS: President Barack Obama's health care law may or may not be good for the country on balance. But it's clearly helping many people.

In the two years it's been in effect, the share of Americans without health insurance has declined to 9 percent, a historic low. People with pre-existing health conditions can no longer be turned away by insurers, and everyone is required to have coverage or face fines.

While the coverage mandate in Obama's law remains highly unpopular, state-run high-risk health insurance pools like the one Fiorina proposes to replace the law have been tried before and failed to solve the problem.


In general I agree with the fact checker - but it is a touch simple - having more insured, does not necessary mean they have better or cheaper to them health care. We treat the uninsured in this country. So the question is are the fact checkers noted benefits worth the costs - is today overall better than pre Obamacare. I think that is certainly a valid question that you can argue - it most certainly in no fact that we are better off now than then.

CRUZ: Since 2008, the economy has grown on average only 1.2 percent a year, showing "the Obama economy is a disaster."

THE FACTS: That average is correct as far as it goes, but it masks the fact that Obama inherited a raging recession in his first year, when the economy shrank by 2.5 percent. In the five years since, the economy expanded an average of 2 percent, more than Cruz's figure but still a relatively weak recovery in historical terms.

The fact checker stopped checking facts here and became the explanation giver.


TRUMP: "I will tell you, I don't have to give you a website because I'm self-funding my campaign. I'm putting up my own money."

THE FACTS: This assertion might have been true months ago but no longer is.


yea trump again - can we just agree almost nothing he says is fact and be done with it?

BUSH: "We need to raise the (banks') capital requirements. ... Dodd-Frank has actually done the opposite, totally the opposite. ... Bigger banks have more and more control over the financial assets of this country."

THE FACTS: Actually, the Dodd-Frank legislation, passed in 2010 in the wake of the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, has pushed banks to raise more capital ? in other words, to obtain more of their funding from investment, rather than debt.

I have to do some more digging on this one - not 100% sure that Bush is 100% wrong - may have to return to this one.

CARSON: Discussing the presence of Russian troops in Syria, added that "the Chinese are there" as well.

THE FACTS: China has no publicly known deployment of military forces in Syria. In recent days, some news reports have suggested that China would send a warship to Syria, but China's foreign ministry has denied that.

Can I extend the bush rule to Dr. Carson as well. Seems he is more a big picture guy, those facts can be a nuisance. 

Don't feed the troll, DatBoyHood.


Yes the Associated Press is a troll. Fail SFB! LMFAO 

with welders making $26,002 to $63,698.

Lol at Liberal Arts

Welding Engineer - Arc Welding/MIG
Welding/TIG Welding
location Houston, TX 77001

pay rate salary
75,000.00 - 90,000.00 $ /year

position type/job duration Full Time Employee
Job posted 11/2/2015 

NYT

Mr. Paul says that if you want to live in a city with lower inequality, you live in a city with a Republican mayor.

Sure, if you prefer smaller cities.

Were they lying or just miss spoke? IDK 

Were they lying or just miss spoke? IDK

It's the truth. That's why you didn't get it. 

Souperman --- 41 min ago - quote - hide comments
Were they lying or just miss spoke? IDK
It's the truth. That's why you didn't get it.

Soup. You should be thankful I'm not a mod. Youd be chillin 

So mm and joe are you saying the cbo is wrong with minimum wage and job losses.. Careful with your answer 

What happened to mm and joe.. Turned into crickets like fuzzy 

Also, the tax plans are crazy. Sounded like Herman Cain. These guys are cynical liars to try to make people think that the tax rates they're promising would work--unless theyre willing to triple the deficit. Liars. Kasich was the only one telling the truth about that, and no one wants to hear it. 

Soup. You should be thankful I'm not a mod. Youd be chillin

You'd never be a mod. I'm not worried. 

Souperman --- 45 min ago - quote - hide comments
Soup. You should be thankful I'm not a mod. Youd be chillin

You'd never be a mod. I'm not worried.?


lol, in what universe could that happen? 

No its not likely I will ever be a mod. Yes soup. you can rest easy. 

But if it ever happens. IM sure KU would see a new & improved soup. Probably in the Ice Box is where they would see you. 

So. When I hear right wingers say " I want smaller government" or "I don't want government in my life" I have to wonder. Why do they think Trump is the answer to that call?
I can't believe that everyone that votes republican is stupid. But on the other hand, never has a republican official ever reduced the size of government.

Case in point. Donald Trump wants to create a deportation task force to rid the U.S. of all of its illegal aliens. Never-mind that it will never happen. Its the mind set that interest me. Smaller Gov. vs new cabinet task force + cost. Gotta figure cost. No one wants to kick in the door of a Mexicans family home for free.

Personally, this guy is too high on himself and has no chance of being elected. But its the voters that like him that have my attn. wtf. is wrong w/people?

Trump's interview on CNBC Morning Joe 

But if it ever happens. IM sure KU would see a new & improved soup. Probably in the Ice Box is where they would see you.

Wow. Threats, mark?

I bet you wouldn't be talking to me like that if I were a ghost............. or ghost buster. 

Did mm or joe ever respond to the cbo and minimum wage? 

For the record, and as if we didn't know....... Joe and Judas are one in the same. He outed himself in the Carson thread. 

Did they ever figure out that Cubans are Hispanic/Latino? 

Wow. Threats, mark?
IDK. Do you feel threatened? lol

Souperman --- 12 hours ago - quote - hide comments
Soup. You should be thankful I'm not a mod. Youd be chillin
You'd never be a mod. I'm not worried.

I don't believe you do. But who cares? 

Cubans are Hispanic/Latino?
Dont ever say that to a Cuban 

The mark is the cbo lieing about minimum wage and job loss 

IDK. Do you feel threatened? lol

By you? Never.