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Are immigrants breaking the law, or is the law breaking them. Should we work on the law and proces

who's talking here?

SoupIsGoodFood 27
FANCY PANTS 6
AwesomeTattooedDragon 6
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Joe Blow 2
sheddy 1
sdanielmcev 8
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AMDG 47
them 1
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AMDG --- 5 years ago -

Here is an article by Fr. Carroll - Giving a view into issues around immigration from their perspective.

Issues these days get very black and white ? very 2 dimensional - whatever side of the issue you are on ? I think this is a worthwhile read to get at least some understanding of the issue from the eyes of the immigrant - and how we reconcile their issues with our Christian heritage.

Over the years, I have found that some Catholics express their opposition to the presence of undocumented immigrants in the United States by asking: ?What part of illegal do you not understand??

It is true that people who cross the U.S.-Mexico border break the law. At the same time, I have learned how important it is to put this choice and this act into context.

At the Kino Border Initiative, our ministry is to migrants in Nogales, Sonora, just across the border from its twin city, Nogales, Ariz. About 70 percent of the migrants we serve tell us that they cross for economic reasons. They literally cannot provide for their families in Mexico, Central America or Haiti.

About 17 percent of migrants come because of separation from children, spouses and other family members, while about 9 percent have come fleeing violence both in Mexico and Central America. Nations have a right to secure their borders but, as Catholic Social Teaching reminds us, people also have the right to migrate if they cannot have a dignified life in their country of origin.

Our current system keeps our neighbors from seeking a dignified way of life because of restrictions on work and family visas. It is also extremely difficult to seek and obtain asylum in the United States for those escaping criminal, political or state-sponsored violence in their home countries.

Many of these migrants would love nothing more than to come to the United States legally, yet they have no way to do so in conformity with current U.S. immigration law. This reality reflects the brokenness of our immigration system. The fact is that for many people without professional skills or money there is no path to legal immigration.

The broken system makes family unification an unnecessary trial. According to the U.S. State Department Visa bulletin, for example, the visa applications of unmarried Mexican sons and daughters of U.S. citizens before June 1, 1996 are still being reviewed. This means that these applicants have waited decades for a response to their application, due to the annual numerical limits the U.S. government places on this particular visa category for Mexicans. Families face a painful decision: wait many years to be considered for a visa or just cross the border without documentation in order to be reunited with loved ones.

U.S. law keeps migrants from seeking and finding a dignified way of life, a desire which God has for all of us. It forces them into far reaches of the border where they risk being victims of robbery, assault and death on the desert. It keeps family members separated and prevents migrant men, women and children from finding safety through asylum in the United States.

Archbishop John Wester, leader of the Diocese of Santa Fe, N.M., has said that it is not a question of whether or not migrants are breaking the law, but if the law is breaking them. Instead of focusing on enforcement methods that punish those who are living and working among us already?and their children?we should be turning our attention to reforming U.S. immigration law so that it respects migrant?s human dignity, a value we cherish both as Catholics and as Americans.
 

AMDG --- 5 years ago -

Sorry this part got cut off -

A Jesuit view from the border - Fr. Sean Carrol S.J. director Kino Border Initiative ? Nogales, Mexico 

SoupIsGoodFood --- 5 years ago -

Would you mind if these Mexican immigrants broke into your house to feed and house themselves?

Or would you call the police on them?

Simple question. 

AMDG --- 5 years ago -

If anyone broke into my house I would call the police on them. 

FANCY PANTS --- 5 years ago -

If anyone broke into my house I would call the police on them.?

They have broken into our country and need to be sent back. It's very simple! 

SoupIsGoodFood --- 5 years ago -

If anyone broke into my house I would call the police on them.

Why? They're just hungry and need a place to live.

Are you that cold hearted?

Why should they knock and wait for you to answer the door? 

AMDG --- 5 years ago -

They have broken into our country and need to be sent back. It's very simple!

I understand - I don't think your analogy holds - but regardless that is not the point of my post.

In a few sentences my point is should these following points influence how we view the issue of immigration ? If they are true, and valid points, shouldn't we have to be able to reconcile them with our view on immigration :

1. Empathy for these people.

Putting yourself in their place. If you could not feed your family, if you were separated from your family, if you were in real danger in your home, couldn't you understand their desire to enter the country. What would you do ? Can you not see yourself making the same choice faced with the same situation. If that is the case is the problem the people or the situation?

2. The current laws, process makes legal entry almost impossible - esp for the poor. So if you are desperate as above - but there is no real legal path to entry - what would you do ??

3. As Christians - (for those who believe they are ) How do we reconcile the Christian virtue of charity toward these people, if we do not advocate for some method of assisting them. 

AwesomeTattooedDragon --- 5 years ago -

My grandparents had to wait until their American relatives could save the money to sponsor them coming to America- and they were expected to pay them back-there were problems for them in their country of origin, too- but they still had to wait- there was no government dole then, either- (they would never have taken it, anyway) They were expected to learn the language, and the exam to become a citizen was only in English. They saved money for what they needed- there was no credit- It seems many people have forgotten how to take responsibility for themselves- 

AMDG --- 5 years ago -

Why? They're just hungry and need a place to live.

Hypothetical I know - and in real life not sure what I would do, but if someone broke into my house - and got up to find them eating bread in my kitchen because they were hungry - my hope is I would be more like Bishop Myriel in Les Mis than jean valjean. 

AwesomeTattooedDragon --- 5 years ago -

What qualifies these people to be more entitled than our ancestors?
the Irish had the potato famine, and were hungry, too-few people came to the US if if life was good for them- 

dkeller --- 5 years ago -

I think we need to stop living in a fantasy world where our resources can be used to worry about people in other countries. There is no mass genocide going on in Mexico. Do we assume they are lazy and stupid and won't fix their own problems? No, let's assume they are NOT stupid and NOT lazy and just lack motivation. Close the border; they need to fix their own country and we need to fix ours. Charity begins at home and in my opinion we need to stop living in denial about how much we need to do for our own citizens. I completely agree with Awesome Tattooed Dragon. 

AMDG --- 5 years ago -

ATD - understand all yours. Think the point of the article is, the immigration law and process now is different - it is for all practical purposes impossible for the poor to legally enter -

So if you place yourself in their shoes? What would you do? 

FANCY PANTS --- 5 years ago -

1. Empathy for these people.

Putting yourself in their place. If you could not feed your family, if you were separated from your family, if you were in real danger in your home, couldn't you understand their desire to enter the country. What would you do ? Can you not see yourself making the same choice faced with the same situation. If that is the case is the problem the people or the situation?

2. The current laws, process makes legal entry almost impossible - esp for the poor. So if you are desperate as above - but there is no real legal path to entry - what would you do ??

3. As Christians - (for those who believe they are ) How do we reconcile the Christian virtue of charity toward these people, if we do not advocate for some method of assisting them.?


1. I do not have empathy for anyone who breaks our laws.

2. Current law does not make it almost impossible to come here legally. However, it does make it impossible to come here instantly and unvetted, which is what these people want. I am sure our government has some form of assistance for the poor who would like to come here legally. Poor - How do they get huge amounts of money to help them come to America illegally?

3. Just because we are Christian does not mean we have to let people break our laws.


My question for you~~I can only assume you are talking about illegals coming from Mexico. What is wrong with their government? Why do they not want to keep their citizens? Why do they not want them back? 

AMDG --- 5 years ago -

dk - that is fine. And I even agree that the best long term answer is to fix the problems in the home counties - to minimize the need.

But that fix is not going to happen today, this week, this month, this year

What do we do till then ?? 

AwesomeTattooedDragon --- 5 years ago -

I can't imagine that I would enter the US illegally and expect to be able to stay- Why not try to learn a trade or profession that could support you in your mother country? 

dkeller --- 5 years ago -

dk - that is fine. And I even agree that the best long term answer is to fix the problems in the home counties - to minimize the need.

But that fix is not going to happen today, this week, this month, this year

What do we do till then ???


Why do you keep insisting it is any of our business? 

AMDG --- 5 years ago -

1. I do not have empathy for anyone who breaks our laws.

Then I am sorry for you.

2. Current law does not make it almost impossible to come here legally. However, it does make it impossible to come here instantly and unvetted, which is what these people want. I am sure our government has some form of assistance for the poor who would like to come here legally. Poor - How do they get huge amounts of money to help them come to America illegally?

I don't think very much of that is true - but it is kind of the point of the article.

If there is not any real, doable, viable way to enter the country legally. And because of that - desperate people enter illegally - is the base problem bad people or a bad law - process ?

3. Just because we are Christian does not mean we have to let people break our laws.

Of course not, but as Christians we should be able to feel empathy for the needy and desperate, and we should have a desire to help them. 

FANCY PANTS --- 5 years ago -

I can't imagine that I would enter the US illegally and expect to be able to stay- Why not try to learn a trade or profession that could support you in your mother country??

If you entered Mexico illegally they would arrest you and keep you in jail for a while before they returned you to America. 

urabunchcats --- 5 years ago -

What part of

ILLEGAL

don't you understand?



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AMDG --- 5 years ago -

Why do you keep insisting it is any of our business?

because my Christianity does not have a border.

And I do have empathy for them - I have no doubt that if I was unable to feed my family - or if I was separated from my wife and children and told it may be decades before I would see them - I have no doubt I would cross the border. 

FANCY PANTS --- 5 years ago -

I have no doubt I would cross the border.

Maybe you should try crossing their border so you can help their government see they need to take care of their people. 

AMDG --- 5 years ago -

I can't imagine that I would enter the US illegally and expect to be able to stay- Why not try to learn a trade or profession that could support you in your mother country??

If that was an option, I think they would have done this - in the very vast majority people enter this country to go to work - and they do.

If you entered Mexico illegally they would arrest you and keep you in jail for a while before they returned you to America.

As do we - in vast numbers and have been doing for years. 

dkeller --- 5 years ago -

because my Christianity does not have a border.
Then go, dude! My best wishes to you and please remember to take only YOUR own money to help them. What is wrong with you; do you need a list of charities and people to help here in America. You are trying to sound Christian but no decent Christian turns their back on their own to help others. That's just you trying to act all goody-two-shoes while people right in front of your nose suffer. Start with a Hispanic American if you feel the need. Emphasis on "American" and when you have helped all Americans then you can come back and appeal to us to help those in other countries. Jeesh...live in the real world dude, please! 

AwesomeTattooedDragon --- 5 years ago -

you're a good person, AMDG- I just don't understand why these people are any more important or privileged than past generations- they faced the same struggles as these immigrants, but came here the right way, and strived to become Americans, language and all. 

AMDG --- 5 years ago -

What qualifies these people to be more entitled than our ancestors?
the Irish had the potato famine, and were hungry, too-few people came to the US if if life was good for them-


Every immigrants story is unique - including mine ( I am first generation American - both of my parents were born in Europe). But TAD that is the point - there was a viable path to enter the county legally - especially for European immigrants for most of our history - and this immigration has been one of our greatest strengths.

I think I would change your point to why don't these people have the same access to legal entry as my parents had. 

AMDG --- 5 years ago -

Then go, dude! My best wishes to you and please remember to take only YOUR own money to help them. What is wrong with you; do you need a list of charities and people to help here in America. You are trying to sound Christian but no decent Christian turns their back on their own to help others. That's just you trying to act all goody-two-shoes while people right in front of your nose suffer. Start with a Hispanic American if you feel the need. Emphasis on "American" and when you have helped all Americans then you can come back and appeal to us to help those in other countries. Jeesh...live in the real world dude, please!

so dk - to point one - if you were in their position - you were separated from you family - the legal process was going to be decades - if you could afford it - which you cant. You see no real option - do you cross the border illegally to be with you family 

FANCY PANTS --- 5 years ago -

they faced the same struggles as these immigrants, but came here the right way, and strived to become Americans, language and all.?

I also have relatives who came here the right way. Ellis Island and all. They wanted to be American. Wanted to speak the language, learn the culture, and be an American. They loved America more than they loved the country they left.

Illegals coming from Mexico are a stark contrast. They do not feel allegiance to this country. All they want is to work tax-free and send their money back to Mexico. They do not want to learn the English language, customs, and to love America. They just want to reap the benefits of America. 

AMDG --- 5 years ago -

Illegals coming from Mexico are a stark contrast. They do not feel allegiance to this country. All they want is to work tax-free and send their money back to Mexico. They do not want to learn the English language, customs, and to love America. They just want to reap the benefits of America

all of that, and worse, was said by the natives then to those relatives of yours who came through ellis island.

Just a matter of perspective. 

dkeller --- 5 years ago -

so dk - to point one - if you were in their position - you were separated from you family - the legal process was going to be decades - if you could afford it - which you cant. You see no real option - do you cross the border illegally to be with you family?
Yes or no or maybe or.... yes in the morning, no in the evening. Do you understand my point? The real question is do I think I should be helped by anyone if I am committing a crime; absolutely not. To believe I would be helped after I have broken the laws of the country I want to live in is to live in a fantasy world where I expect a handout. I don't understand this mentality at all. Why even have a border if I can feel I am entitled to help no matter where I go? Actually that smacks of arrogance. How arrogant I would be to think that that country should help me before it's own people. Who do I think I am!? Privileged? Privileged in another man's country? That's rich.

By the way; I like the way you argue; hang in there. 

AMDG --- 5 years ago -

Then go, dude! My best wishes to you and please remember to take only YOUR own money to help them. What is wrong with you; do you need a list of charities and people to help here in America

DK - this, like a few of your claims focus on the cost of illegal immigrants to us.

Although anyone can find all kinds of numbers on this to throw around - I do not think there is one complete and generally accepted un-biased report that weight the economic benefits to the US

Benefits:

paid taxes - something like 75% of illegal immigrants pay state, local, and federal taxes -

economic activity - Illegal immigrants, as with most poor people, consume nearly all there income - they add economic activity, they buy or rent nearly 5% of the nations real estate.

Lower costs for goods and services - we all pay less for some things ( think restaurants, child care, domestic help ) do to illegal immigrants.

Social security - Illegals pay into social security and with no right to ever claim benefits

against the costs

Competition for lower paid wages - illegals push down the wages for low level jobs.

Higher costs for education - while most illegals either indirectly thru rents or directly pay local taxes for education - their children tend to need more services - primarily due to language.

Healthcare - through the emergency care provisions - illegals tax the healthcare system.

Indirect subsidies to illegals - through legal immigrants - many receive government support indirectly through a legal spouse or child.

Cost of enforcing, detaining, repatriating, building the wall etc.

I am not sure there is any real number that both side of the argument can agree on to what the cost of illegal immigration really is. 

SoupIsGoodFood --- 5 years ago -

all of that, and worse, was said

Was said. But not true. Those that came through Ellis Island assimilated. They became true Americans. They learned the language and customs.

Those from Mexico. Not so much. 

SoupIsGoodFood --- 5 years ago -

Social security - Illegals pay into social security and with no right to ever claim benefits

How do they do this without a legal SS number? 

AMDG --- 5 years ago -

Yes or no or maybe or.... yes in the morning, no in the evening. Do you understand my point?

No - I don't. What I think is, yes given the options I gave you - you would cross. You just don't really want to say that.

The real question is do I think I should be helped by anyone if I am committing a crime; absolutely not. To believe I would be helped after I have broken the laws of the country I want to live in is to live in a fantasy world where I expect a handout. I don't understand this mentality at all. Why even have a border if I can feel I am entitled to help no matter where I go? Actually that smacks of arrogance. How arrogant I would be to think that that country should help me before it's own people. Who do I think I am!? Privileged? Privileged in another man's country? That's rich.

I challenge the assumption that most - even a small minority - are coming to this country for help, and handout, or a free ride. I think the vast majority are coming here for the same reasons almost all other immigrant groups came - for a chance, for an opportunity, for a hope for a better life for their children. 

AMDG --- 5 years ago -

Those from Mexico. Not so much.

I don't find that to be true. You would be hard pressed to find a first generation Mexican American (one born here) that is not an English speaker, and not significantly Americanized.

How do they do this without a legal SS number?

It is not that hard to obtain one - as I understand it. Because the government likes to get paid - they can get a 9 digit itin card from the irs regardless of immigration status -

they just use that number, or get a fake ss card made with it - willing employers who hire these type folks at very low wages don't dig too deep.

probably other ways as well 

urabunchcats --- 5 years ago -


I L L E G A L

DEPORT ALL THE ILLEGAL ALIENS!


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FANCY PANTS --- 5 years ago -

Are immigrants breaking the law

Yes, illegal immigrants are breaking America's laws. They are here illegally! 

AMDG --- 5 years ago -

Of course fancy, that is absolutely true. However let me ask you what you would do.

You are separated from your childer, the legal process for entry may take decades, and you can't afford it anyway. Do you wait the 10 or 15 years away from your children or do you cross the border?

So is the problem the person, or the system that provides no real and reasonable way to enter legally? 

urabunchcats --- 5 years ago -

NOT EVERYBODY DESERVES A TROPHY!

AMDG - You know you are full of B.S.

To become a U.S. citizen there are LAWS with well defined requirements.

My wife with her 2 sisters and her Mom/Dad all came in the legal way.

Can everybody do what is required to enter the U.S.? No.

GET IN LINE.
DO WHAT IS REQUIRED.
IF NOT - STAY HOME.

NOT EVERYBODY DESERVES A TROPHY!

IT HAS TO BE EARNED!
 

sdanielmcev --- 5 years ago -

The problem with the good father's argument is that it fails on a few salient points. First and foremost is he is talking about a religious responsibility, and confused it with a governmental responsibility. Then he denies the responsibility of the immigrants themselves own responsibility to for their own welfare. I.e. to do the legal thing. 

SoupIsGoodFood --- 5 years ago -

I don't find that to be true. You would be hard pressed to find a first generation Mexican American (one born here) that is not an English speaker, and not significantly Americanized.

We are not talking about those folks and you know it. We are talking about the ones that come here illegally. Stop being so disingenuous. 

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