The Evil of Gun Violence - a Moral question

We have rightly said on these boards, as well as has been said almost everywhere that the killings in Las Vegas were pure evil. While that is absolutely true - some deeper thought about evil and what it is may widen that statement to include more people than Stephen Paddock. A deeper understanding of evil may include gun manufactures, law makers, and even you and me.

If you believe evil to be an inevitable part of the human condition, then things such as gun control are futile. This is the though process behind the repeated " it would not have stopped (fill in the blank)" comments. This one dimensional view of evil can lead to fatalism and reduces all responsibility to tragedies like this to the perpetrator alone ? or some metaphysical force ? say the devil.

However, if you take a more complex look at evil, you can see what Catholic teaching would call a "structure of sin" . We are all ensnared in one degree of another in these webs of sinful relationships, practices, regulations. Because of this, it is impossible for us to not have some level of complicity in them. Said another way, if a social evil is occurring, we are accountable for contributing to it, and responsible to lessen our cooperation with it.

Those who do not do what is reasonably possible to keep guns out of the wrong hands contribute in one degree or another.

In Catholic moral theology, there are different forms and degrees of cooperation in evil. Formal cooperation is either directly participating in the act itself, or sharing in the immoral intention of the person committing it.

There is also material cooperation with evil, if you are aware of an evil, and through some level of conscience decision you do not do what you can reasonably do to prevent it.

Since we are all aware there is evil associated with gun deaths, the question is, are gun manufactures, government, and you and me ? doing what we can to reduce it.

IMO, and this is pure unsubstantiated opinion, I believe gun manufactures are well aware of the market for illegal guns. They are aware that the vast majority of those guns start as legal, they make them and sell them, with the complete understanding that many will make their way into illegal hands. They completely understand this is market share ? and profits for them. Less guns in the wrong hands, means less gun sales.

IMO the NRA as their arm is also well aware, and through their funding, and lobbying have made our government complicit in this evil.

And IMO we all share in that evil to one degree or another if we are not doing what is reasonably in our power to do to stop these guns from ending up in the wrong hands. Whether that is criminal, or unstable.

Note - much of this is lifted and parsed from an article in American Magazine 

Speaking of evil, has the Catholic Church stopped covering up for pedophile priests yet? 

Deflect and distract just like your evil leader Trump Dump. He's smacked Emp into submission just like Harvey W. and the girls. 

pedophile priests
The Pope has done "something" with Arch Bishops. Moreover has made a statement..feel free to self google "Pope on pedophile priests". See what happens.

Short answer. yes.
Whats that got to do with guns deflector-bob? 

Just one question...how would outlawing guns stop the lawbreakers? They, by definition, break the law....so what you really want to do is take away guns from law abiding people. Right? 

Just one question...how would outlawing guns stop the lawbreakers? They, by definition, break the law....so what you really want to do is take away guns from law abiding people. Right?

This point is addressed above -

If you believe evil to be an inevitable part of the human condition, then things such as gun control are futile. This is the though process behind the repeated " it would not have stopped (fill in the blank)" comments. This one dimensional view of evil can lead to fatalism and reduces all responsibility to tragedies like this to the perpetrator alone ? or some metaphysical force ? say the devil

We really do not see your fatalistic argument almost anywhere else - except on gun control.

No one ever says, well people are going to murder anyway - so we shouldn't do what we can to stop it

people are going to steal so we shouldn't do anything about it

people are going to drive drunk so we shouldn't do anything about it.

I wonder why we continue to hear it in relation to guns.


IMO the NRA has done a wonderful job of turning almost any discussion on increases/changes in gun control into - the slippery slope argument " they are going to take away all your guns"

or the fatalistic argument - "there is nothing we can do - it is just part of the human condition" - "people kill not guns"

the point of the o/p is that there is plenty of evil to go around regarding gun violence in America - and all of us, gun owners included, should be doing what we can - small or large to limit it.

and under the 2nd amendment fights, and the imo fallacious arguments above - the real issue is money - gun manufacturers make more money when more guns are sold, and they are well aware that many of those guns will end up in the wrong hands. And they have used their money to buy political clout through the NRA and have convinced many gun owners to support their basic drive for money. 

?wonder why we continue to hear it in relation to guns.?

Because one focuses on outlawing an act of a human and the other an object used by a human to commit an act already illegal. 

Just one question...how would outlawing guns stop the lawbreakers? They, by definition, break the law....so what you really want to do is take away guns from law abiding people. Right?

In short.
Guns and Law are pointless conversations.

Law abiding citizens have been duped into funding a government operation(s) in the name of legal access to a deadly weapon in a public place.
"We don't need no steeenking license" sound familiar?
Ive said it enough times. Gun violence has and will continue to rise since open carry. 

Gun violence has and will continue to rise since open carry.?

But that isn't the case here in Texas. 

Because one focuses on outlawing an act of a human and the other an object used by a human to commit an act already illegal.

People are going to do heroin - yet we still have laws against selling it 

But that isn't the case here in Texas

I dont believe that. Post a stat with a link. bob 

Mark it's really easy to find. Look at the CDC website and then politifact. 

^^Neither a stat or a link. bs-bob cant back up the bs 

Bob - one way to look at moral arguments, is to look at the morality of the inverse.

So, the inverse is.

Not doing what you can do to reduce gun violence is moral. Because .... 

People who love guns think mass shootings are a fair price to pay for their right to carry. It wasn't them personally who committed the crime, so, why should they be punished? It's a very myopic (and sick) viewpoint in my opinion.

How do you change that type of mindset?

Ignore the fact that in every mass shooting, the guns were legally obtained. 

Many facts about guns are ignored:

1. They are a public health threat that kill and maim innocent people daily, unfortunately, the 58 killed in Vegas is just a small sample of the daily occurrence--

2. The deaths and injuries that occur are by guns rarely due to self defense

3. If you want to carry, you should have to have insurance like you do for a car, so that the innocent people getting harmed have a fair repercussion for unfairly losing loved ones or being injured 

Ive said it enough times. Gun violence has and will continue to rise since open carry.

You've said a lot of stupid crap on here that was neither factual or accurate. This is another example. 

In fact, gun violence has been declining since the early 90's. The misperception that it is on the increase is due to the spotlight being turned on incidents of mass shootings in recent years.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/03/weve-had-a-massive-decline-in-gun-violence-in-the-united-states-heres-why/?utm_term=.2104f7dbe4b3 

You've said a lot of stupid crap on here that was neither factual or accurate. This is another example.

Violent crime went up after right to carry laws went into effect. Looks like there is research to back it up.

?Ten years after the adoption of RTC laws, violent crime is estimated to be 13 [percent to] 15 percent higher than it would have been without the RTC law,? the authors concluded. Just five years after, it?s about 7 percent higher. ?There is not even the slightest hint in the data that [these] laws reduce violent crime,? they write.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w23510 

People who love guns think mass shootings are a fair price to pay for their right to carry. It wasn't them personally who committed the crime, so, why should they be punished? It's a very myopic (and sick) viewpoint in my opinion.

I am not sure Dorothy IMO they have just been convinced that any discussion about anything relating to gun control equals " they are going to take away my guns "

The have been convinced of this by people who make their money selling guns.

I am a gun owner, and i don't think gun owners are making any kind of a rationalization that private gun ownership has this price of gun deaths. I think they have been convinced that the volume of gun sales has nothing at all to do with the level of violence.

Gun money has done a masterful job.

Here are the real facts about guns. Gun manufactures make money selling guns. A big market for guns is people who should not have them. Gun manufactures don't really care. 

Violent crime went up after right to carry laws went into effect. Looks like there is research to back it up.


Mark said "open carry". He's whined about our fair state turning into the OK Corral before and since the passage of open carry, which hasn't been the case at all. 

AMDG, if the public really cared about these events, gun sales wouldn't increase substantially after an event like Vegas. The bump stocks sold out because people were afraid they couldn't get one. Why do they need one????

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I truly believe people love their guns over their fellow citizens. If you could witness the horror in Newtown, CT, where small children were slaughtered by a legal gun owner and not cry out for stricter laws and restrictions, you have chosen guns over a child's life.

It sickens me. 

It sickens me.

I think the argument they has bought into is " there is nothing you can do to prevent this" "guns don't kill people do" " he/she could have used a (fill in the blank"

To really get better at this - people who own and want to own guns have to start believing

"i am a responsible gun owner - better controls will not take guns away from responsible gun owners - but will probably save some lives"

The debate now IMO is emotional not rational. 

It's definitely emotional. When you hear/see innocent people being mowed down by automatic gunfire with nowhere to hide, it's really emotional! How the emotions range from: "we need better laws to protect people" vs "I need more guns" is beyond me. 

I own several guns and make no apologies. BUT i have no issues with gun registration and background checks. Even bans on certain types would not faze me. Something has got to give people!

Background checks will still not find all issues but is a beginning. 

Background checks are already required. Fully automatic weapons are already banned in most cases.

Nancy Pelosi and many on the left want a total repeal of the,second ammendment. 

I know emp, but many are against them, which i find weird... 

Gun grabbers continue to run around in circles on this issue. 

Background checks are not required in every state. Gun shows are not regulated and the rules vary from state to state.

There are no consistent guns laws or regulations, period. This should change and become a priority. 

Background checks are not required in every state. Gun shows are not regulated and the rules vary from state to state.?

There are no consistent guns laws or regulations, period. This should change and become a priority.?

Wrong. Background checks are federal law.

Gun shows are populated with FFL dealers who are required to do background checks. What isn't regulated is private sales. Some of those take place in the parking lot of gun shows. 

Background checks aren't all created equal 

Gun show rules by state 

Did you even read that article? 

Did you even read that article? 

I read both. Did you? We do not have universal gun laws in this country and the pittance we do have, are easily avoided.

We will continue to have horrible mass shootings and people like you will continue to justify them in the name of "freedom" and the 2nd amendment. I hope gun violence never affects you personally, but if it does, at least you'll have your guns for comfort. That's the message being sent to the victims of these horrific and all too common incidents. 

What isn't regulated is private sales. Some of those take place in the parking lot of gun shows.

There is a huge HOLE in the background check requirement since private transactions are exempt from this requirement as they are not considered dealers, or businesses.

Nine states have added laws to include background checks to ALL transactions, private or not, to close the gaping hole in the federal law.

If you needed a background check to buy a vehicle, but only if you get the car from a dealer...not off of Craig's list, or from your next door neighbor...is there really a purposeful law for background checks to buy vehicles?

How hard is to change the law to address the gap? Especially when both pro and con agree it is a good idea? 

Let's be clear. I'm in favor of all gun sale or transfers having to take place at a licensed dealer. It's just near impossible to enforce. 

Let's be clear. I'm in favor of all gun sale or transfers having to take place at a licensed dealer.

I agree with this to a point. If there could be a different mechanism for succesorship. When my Grandfather passed, my Grandmother gave me his antique shotgun. There is no way in her late 70's she could have made a 100mi R/T to a dealer. That would be my only objection to all transactions. 

Let's be clear. I'm in favor of all gun sale or transfers having to take place at a licensed dealer. It's just near impossible to enforce.

Universal gun registration would go a long way to help enforcement in closing the private sale gap.

it is the best thing we can do to help close the link were legal guns go to illegal guns. 

Universal gun registration would go a long way to help enforcement in closing the private sale gap.

How do you propose to enforce it?